Z5 and Supra Speculations

"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind) 10/17/2016 at 10:04 • Filed to: BMW-Toyota Z5upra

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Let’s be real, the only reasons BMW and Toyota are working together are for two things both brands (and the industry) needs: Weight reduction and mass volume sporting electrification. Mix the two together and you get lightweight sport hybrids for under $100,000 and the beginning of where everyday sportscars will be.

There won’t be anything special about the gas-only powered models. The upcoming BMW Z5 will be a softtop 2-seater and the Toyota Sportscar will be a 2-seater coupe. The cars will have about the same exterior dimensions of the Porsche 911 but be priced right in the 718 Boxster/Cayman market (so there’s your value). More importantly though, they will have a similar curb weight to the current Porsche 718. Again, Im just talking about the gas-only versions we’ll see unveiled next year. Here’s what I’m thinking:

Toyota Supra
Coupe only, manual and DCT transmission options.
No AWD availability.
$49k or $55k (depending on how well the $55k version throws down).

BMW Z5
Soft top convertible only, manual transmission and DCT options.
RWD and AWD availability.
$53k.

As far as gasoline engines to plug into go, I’m thinking something like this:

B48 - 250-300 hp and 260-300 lb-ft.
- Not available in the Supra.
- Available in Z5 sDrive30i and xDrive30i

B58B30O0 - 335-360 hp and 350-375 lb-ft.
- Not available in the Supra.
- Available in Z5 sDrive40i and xDrive40i.

“B58B30T0" - 376-420 hp and 380-410 lb-ft
- Available in the Supra.
- Available in Z5 M Sport sDrive50i and M Sport xDrive50i

* I know there are a ton of BMW enthusiasts here that can better speculate on the ACTUAL engine that would be used, the designation, and the performance aspects. I don’t see the N55B30T0 being used, but maybe you do. I say that a “B58B30T0" is coming in order to be an engine specially developed with a hybrid compatibility in mind to supplement it.

Now I’m going to bet that Toyota will touch the I6 and that the current prototype we have been seeing on the Nurburgring is simply running reliability testing and gradually being bumped up as Toyota plays editor/censor to that foreign powertrain. I know they trust the chassis and vehicle dynamics and would have piggybacked off of whatever the Z5 prototype has been laying down in testing otherwise and saved the cash.

So here is the lineup I’m thinking:

2018 BMW Z5 sDrive30i and xDrive30i (Softtop Convertible)
- 6MT, 7DCT
- 270 hp and 285 lb-ft (B48)
- Starts at $53,000. Lowest weight at 2,900 lbs

2018 BMW Z5 sDrive40i and xDrive40i (Softtop Convertible)
- 6MT, 7DCT
- 355 hp and 360 lb-ft (B58B30Oo)
- Starts at $61,000. Lowest weight at 3,050 lbs

2018 BMW Z5 M Sport sDrive50i and M Sport xDrive50i (Softtop Convertible)
- 6MT, 7DCT
- 400 hp and 410 lb-ft (BMW/Toyota developed “B58B30To”)
- Starts at $79,000. Lowest weight at 3,200 lbs

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

2018 Toyota Supra Base (Coupe) - If Low Price Point Needed
- 6MT, 7DCT.
- 320 hp and 350 lb-ft. (Toyota-ized B58B30O0)
- Starts at $49,000. Lowest weight at 2,800 lbs.

2018 Toyota Supra GT (Coupe) - Most Likely Version We’ll See
- 6MT, 7DCT.
- 376 hp and 380 lb-ft. (Toyota/BMW developed “B58B30To”)
- Starts at $55,000. Lowest weight at 2,950

2018 Toyota Supra GT-S (Coupe) - If Toyota Decides To
- 6MT (maybe), 7DCT.
- 405 hp and 395 lb-ft. (Toyota/BMW developed “B58B30To”)

I don’t know, let’s say the Supra GT-S will be about a $62,000 vehicle weighing right on 2,950 lbs still. But the more important vehicles will be a plug-in hybrid Z5 iPerformance and the performance hybrid Supra Hybrid. I think the BMW will be a very lightweight plug-in hybrid (as in 3,500 lbs max) while the Supra will end up being a lightweight performance hybrid (again as in 3,400 lbs max). Both vehicles would have electric motors sending power to the front wheels, maybe one more on the rear differential in the case of the Supra Hybrid. I don’t think the BMW Z5 iPerformance will be higher than the top end M Sport (or whatever they call their Z5 M that isn’t a Z5 M) but it should be a pretty big deal. The Supra Hybrid will be the top end performer and an enthusiast hype machine.

Let’s say the BMW Z5 iPerformance plug-in hybrid will be starting at $70,000 with 350 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque and weighing about 3,400 lbs as the goal. Then we’ll say the Supra Hybrid will start at $73,000 with about 470 hp and 450 lb-ft of torque and weighing in at an astounding (for a hybrid) 3,350 lbs.

Whatever happens, I think the goal of this project is to create the most lightweight, low priced (under-$80k), hybrid sportscar possible right now. Once these two variants hit the market then we’ll get a ton of rumors that the next Corvette, F-Type, 718, and pretty much every sportscar starting between $50,000 and $70,000 will be getting a hybrid version that matches the Z5upra. Should be a good time!

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 10:17

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I’d say that this all seems pretty reasonable. Just look at the performance Nissan was able to offer with the GT-R at a ~$70k MSRP, at least when it was first introduced in 2008. Now combine the power of Toyota and BMW, and the ability to lower the cost bar relative to producing exceptional performance seems pretty solid.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 10:26

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That price range would also leave them well placed to put a third sports car between the 86 and Supra, likely in the mid-high $30k range. They’ve said a number of times now that their plan is to return to the 3-sports car line up, and several credible sources have mentioned serious talks about Celica and/or MR2 successors. I’m less hopeful for the MR2, as it seems that affordable MR cars have become a thing of the past, but it would be amazing to see!

Wobbles the Mind > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 10:34

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I can see the next generation FR-S (or whatever replaces it) using the Lexus turbo 4-cyl and being heavier than the current gen but similarly engaging. I think that would be the $30k Toyota sportscar. If they did an MR2, it would definitely be something in line with the upcoming V6 Audi R8. I could see it happening only because I don’t think Lexus needs an RMR car at all. Top Lexus models seem to be wanting more Maserati flair than Porsche precision, ya know.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 10:37

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I think something using the Lexus turbo-4 would likely be more of a new Celica than a redesign of the 86. I doubt they’ll change the boxer platform in it.

Wobbles the Mind > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 10:47

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You know, I’m not sure why I thought of Lexus when Subaru is over due for a low powered turbo boxer for its entire lineup. Some 1.6L or 2.0L around 180 hp - 200 hp and making torque throughout the range. I bet that’s the engine we’ll see for the next gen. Would be a great time to introduce it too since we are only like 18 or 24 months away from seeing the next generation. There can’t be more than one more model year for both the 86 and BR-Z.

LongbowMkII > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 10:47

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The 86 is the celica successor.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > LongbowMkII 10/17/2016 at 10:52

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I believe we’ve been through this discussion before, and it’s a futile effort to go into it again. lol

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 10:55

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They’ve been pretty adamant that there are no plans for a forced induction Toyobaru from the factory. I will be curious to see how the car evolves, or dies though.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 10:58

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I’m less hopeful for the MR2, as it seems that affordable MR cars have become a thing of the past

Don’t let Honda know or they’ll completely abandon their supposed attempts to bring the S660 here.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 10:59

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I’m betting it dies.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/17/2016 at 11:07

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Wait, they’ve changed their stance on that?! I thought they were 100% not bringing it here. Don’t toy with my emotions like this!

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/17/2016 at 11:08

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Could be. Or it needs some sort of radical change. I still think introducing a convertible trim could significantly revitalize interest in the car for the general public. It’s a good looking car, but most “normal” people shopping for a sporty little FR coupe want a roadster like an ND or 124. My boss’s wife said she’d have bought an FR-S or BRZ if a convertible was offered.

LongbowMkII > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 11:11

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Pedantry forever!

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 11:17

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Didn’t know they confirmed it was definitely not coming. I am now sad.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/17/2016 at 11:19

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Last I heard, zero plans for bring it to the U.S.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/31/honda-s660-sports-cars-us-report/

Technically not an outright declaration of it, but appears to be a pretty solid “no.” :(

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 21:59

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I would find it more likely that the top end Z5 would just use the S55 rather than an uprated B58. I mean why bother engineering a B58 to 410hp when you already have the S55, which is still a fairly new engine, already sitting at 420hp.

Sam > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 10/17/2016 at 22:27

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I hate to be the “I used the inflation calculator” guy, but the 90s MR2 Turbo was a $40,000+ car. It’s kinda affordable, but not that affordable, given it’s a 2 seater with a tiny trunk.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 22:31

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I doubt Toyota would go back to a straight-six configuration if they’re still touting how their GR (V6)/UR (V8) engines can be beneficial to their sporting applications (i.e. F-sport). But everything else is not far off.

WRXforScience > Wobbles the Mind 10/17/2016 at 22:32

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The 2017 BRZ/GT86 is the second gen, original was 13-14, they did a minor facelift for 15-16, and a “2nd gen” (really a more substantial facelift) for the 2017.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Sam 10/18/2016 at 08:09

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Lol no worries. I’ve looked at that factor too, which is one of the reasons I think an MR2 revival is unlikely. A new Celica (let it be, LongbowMkII lol) is the more likely option.